♪ >> Valerie: Hello, welcome to Canada Files .

My name is Valerie Pringle.

I am happy to be your new host taking over from Jim Deeks.

Our first guest this season is author Louise Penny.

She has written eighteen New York Times best-selling murder mysteries including her latest, A World of Curiosities.

Her main character, Inspector Armand Gamache, beat out Sherlock Holmes and Hercule Poirot in a recent Washington Post survey of beloved Detectives.

Her books have also been made into a TV mini-series.

She has written a best-selling political thriller with Hilary Rodham Clinton called, State of Terror.

Remarkable accomplishments for a woman who'd almost given up on her life in her 30's.

Louise Penny, hello!

>> Louise Penny: Valerie, hi!

It's been years, hasn't it?

>> Lovely to see you!

>> And yet, we have not changed.

>> No, we haven't changed a bit.

>> Not a bit, we're still delusional.

I was reading that intro you wrote to another version of Still Life, your first book.

You're saying "When I was 35, I thought the best was behind me.

I was lonely, tired and empty; plodding through life."

You're 64, with 18 bestsellers, a life full of joy.

How did you turn that around?

What Happened?

>> You know what happened?

I got sober.

>> You were an alcoholic?

>> I still am -- I'm not an active alcoholic.

I will always have that in me.

I'm in recovery, as they say... ...that's what happened.

It's such a thief.

It stole all my will to live, it stole my connection to other human beings, it stole much of my humanity, it hollowed me out.

What finally brought me to my knees, was the alcohol certainly but it was loneliness.

It was the aching emptiness that I felt, chasm inside me.

I was 35.

I wasn't halfway through life.

>> You said, you were always nervous, anxious, timid.

Was alcohol your -- which it often is, treatment for that?

Did it mask another mental illness?

>> Not sure it did.

I got sober, there was no depression.

I honestly don't know, whether I was predisposed to it.

It was in the family; I think my father was likely an alcoholic.

I remember looking in the mirror when I was about 21, 22... about the time I started drinking heavily, remembering my father who passed away of pancreatic cancer.

I don't think the drinking helped.

Looking myself in the mirror - I'd just started at the CBC - saying 'I'm never going to turn into my father, never going to.'

Of course, I was well on my way to actually having it happen.

The interesting thing is in the program that I subsequently joined, it saved my life.

There's a phrase, sure you've heard, the grateful alcoholic.

I'm grateful for all that pain, that loneliness.

It made me more compassionate, understanding of other people.

The thing that separated me from others, ended up bonding me to other people.

>> You talked about: "you can't understand or appreciate the light, until you've lived in the darkness."

>> There is the line from W. H. Auden that informs all the books.

And the starting point was: "Goodness existed, that was the new knowledge" "His terror had to blow itself quite out to let him see it."

I'd lived in terror for many, many years.

I was afraid that people would find out I was an alcoholic, just afraid of life, afraid of everything.

>> There are a couple of interesting things: at the time you were working as a journalist, a radio host, ostensibly, really successful and -- >> Fully functioning, yes.

And I experienced... >> So, appearances and reality... >> Yeah, which again, informs the books, that duality .

And that the more shiny the veneer was, the darker the interior was, the sicker the interior was, the greater the need then, to construct an even more happy and joyous exterior.

You talk about the least happy people in the world, those with the biggest gap between appearance and reality.

>> Then you met your husband.

>> Yes!

Michael!

Yeah, yeah.

I went-- within 9 months, I went from wanting and thinking I was going to kill myself.

It wouldn't be a cry for help, it would be....

This one of the many reasons, I'm in favour of gun control and big advocate of it- knowing that had been a gun in the house, I would have done it.

I know I would have done it, I would have no doubt at all.

I had no reason or desire to live.

I went from wanting to kill myself, not seeing a future, to wanting to live, which is an incredible thing.

And that happened the night that I described.

Then I found the love of my life in 9 months... 9 months !

!

It just breaks my heart when people actually do it.

I just want to put my arms around them and say... >> Wait!

>> Wait.

It can get better!

Not always.

I understand that some things are clinical.

That's the road that is irreversible.

There is help out there if you can ask for it, be open to it.

Michael used to talk about 'the gift of despair'.

The only reason I bounced back was, it was the last house on the road.

I was in such despair; I had nothing to lose.

>> The marriage was wonderful.

>> Yeah!

>> He ended up with Alzheimer's.

The essay you wrote about living with him and Alzheimer's.

It's one of the saddest things I've read.

It was poignant, empathetic.

>> Yeah, it was.

>> He was the one who basically allowed you to become a writer.

>> Yes.

Yeah!

He got tired of hearing me talk about wanting to be a writer and not doing it.

And I-- You we're a journalist for many years, you know what it's like.

Eventually you can get ground down by it.

Michael said, "If you want to quit to write that book..." And what he said was almost as great as when he said "I love you".

He said "I'll support you."

He meant it.

And he did, financially and in every other way.

>> Still Life came from that.

>> It did.

It was a bit of a road.

I suffered from writer's block for 5 years... no fun.

>> That being said.

You've written it.

How did you get Still Life so right?

The right characters?

The right place?

You wrote enough, that you could do 17 more?

>> Who would of thought?

They're going to pay me to stop writing.

(laughs) >> You must ask yourself, out of 5 years of writer's block, how you created this world, this character Gamache , who is apparently more popular than Poirot or Sherlock?

>> (laughs)} Every decision I made, was selfish.

Three Pines, 'the village' actually came out of 9/11.

It became clear to all of us, worldwide, that there's no safe place.

The world suddenly became very, very scary.

I yearned for a place that was safe.

There's no guaranteeing physical safety.

We all knew that from 9/11, if we didn't know it beforehand.

That was a great lesson.

We can guarantee emotional safety.

We do it by connection, by community, by a sense of belonging, friendship...

If the pandemic taught us anything, it was that all over again.

I created Three Pines, because I was afraid.

I wanted a place that was going to be emotionally safe.

I filled it with friends, people I'd choose as friends.

I created the main character, Armand, someone I would marry, someone I wouldn't tire of, whose company I would enjoy.

Valerie, I didn't think the book would be published.

I wanted it to be, obviously.

I love reading series fictions.

I wanted it to be a series.

This was ideal, I never dreamed it would actually happen.

But, I did set it up so it could have a life of it's own.

I didn't want to tire of the main character.

If I created someone who was an alcoholic, a coke head, in a bad marriage, desperately unhappy... Why, in the world would I do that?

Why would I choose -- Now I'm God.

Right?

I get to be the goddess, I get to create men.

Why would I create someone I don't want to hang around with?

>> You created him in your husband's image.

>> Well yeah, that was the problem.

I didn't actually create him, I transcribed the man.

(laughs) >> Now it's interesting hearing about what a hard time you had after the success of your first book Still Life .

Writing book #2, you had to go into therapy.

>> (laughs) Yes.

I'm loving this conversation.

>>(laughs) Another form of therapy.

>> Exactly!

I could see people watching and thinking, 'she's screwed up.'

>> Good thing is, the more screwed up, better writer I am.

This bodes well for the future too.

>> You had to kind of let go of the expectation and pressure, to create the second book.

>> No, exactly.

I suffered from writer's block for 5 years.

My agent called up.

With Still Lifewhich wasalready written.

She said "Louise, I've sold 3 books."

I said, "Theresa, fabulous , mine and who else's?"

She said "Oh, you idiot, they're all yours."

Now it had taken me 45 years to write Still Life .

I'm expected to write the second in a year.

I thought Still Life was magic.

I had no idea how I did it.

I felt it was, like the hand of God.

Now, I'm being handed my dream.

I didn't know how to recreate it.

So what I did, I fell back on what I always fell back on that was, playing it safe .

You've got the characters, you've got the template... just do it again, just do it again.

I would say 80, 90 percent through the second book, I was not enjoying it.

I knew it was ok, but it wasn't what it could be.

I went to a therapist for help.

She said something that my changed life, "The wrong person is writing the book", which was not helpful.

>> (laughs) What's that supposed to mean?

Have my agent to write it?

She said, "Your critic is writing the book."

This actually changed my life not just writing, but in general.

You need to thank the critic, bless the critic, but show the critic the door.

Leave it ajar you're going to need her later.

Write with just, joy... with bravery... justwrite !

If you write just 10 pages about a pair of boots it's not going to end up in the final draft.

Just write!

You don't have to get it right the first time.

Some reason, I thought I did; I don't know where that came from.

It was paralysing.

As a result, I ended up being mediocre because that was safe.

She gave me permission to take risks.

>> And write the next 18 books!

>> And do it with joy.

With awareness 'how lucky', with gratitude 'how lucky'...

Bombs aren't dropping on me.

No one has a gun to my head.

I have food in the fridge.

I live with a man I love.

Why not?

Just take 'le beau risque'.

Just do it.

Which is why first drafts are so awful.

They're unrecognizable books.

The critic comes in.

That's where you do the second draft, the third, the fourth.

You whittle down, you clarify, you simplify.

You get themes, because the books aren't about murder.

They're proudly crime novels.

They're not about the murder.

They have to be about something else.

The crime is the Trojan horse.

It allows me to look at all these other issues: redemption, forgiveness, belonging, betrayal, ruin, fear, jealousy.

That has to come out in the third or the fourth draft, but it has to be there in the first draft.

>> You're best friend Hilary Clinton phoned.

>>(laughs, snorts) Hello Louise.

>> She's a fan!

It's, hi Louise !

>> (sarcastically) It was "Hi, Mrs. Penny" .

No it wasn't!

But, who knew?

This has been extraordinary Valerie, as you could probably gather.

Yeah, to go from wanting to kill myself to having secretary Clinton as a friend, and others as friends too.

The way you described at the beginning, was true.

After the introduction to my first book I had no friends, I had no life.

I had this great howl of loneliness.

Now my life is filled with people I love.

It's so much more.

I learned this with Michael's illness: it's much more important to love than to be loved.

In the end, he didn't recognize me, he didn't love me.

I loved him, that's what mattered.

I have Hilary Clinton in my life, and others.

We wrote the book together.

>> That was fun?

You mostly wrote it, right?

You said: "Let's get a plot.

What's your worst nightmare, what keeps you awake at night?"

>> She told me!

That became my worst nightmare.

Terrible woman.

Yes.

>> I will say the description of the Trump character.

(laughs) >> "Most successful politicians have charisma, this went way beyond that.

He possessed a powerful magnetism and animal instinct.

He had a genius for finding people's weaknesses.

He was dreadful and dangerous."

That sounds like her talking, right?

He's stalking her in the debate.

>> The name was her suggestion.

Eric Dunn, Eric the dumb.

What was the phrase?

I hadn't heard it before... she said, no, he was called "The Useful Idiot."

Even his allies would call him 'The Useful Idiot'.

He would do what they wanted, which is why they supported him.

It's fascinating to have that access to what she knew.

Of course she also had access, as did I, - though much closer - to Bill the president.

It was fascinating!

>> And Putin!

"A ruthless tyrant schooled in oppression.

This man calculated everything with a coldness that would have given Siberia a chill."

>> (laughs) It was so much fun writing that scene where he's sitting.

Won't do it, it's disgusting.

What men do with manspreading.

Sitting there and it's clearly-- in that case, meant to be threatening.

We loved writing the Ellen character and the Betsy.

It's a love story of these two women.

Smart.

Strong women.

Who are best friends.

How they use their wiles, they don't pull out guns and start shooting people.

They don't do summersaults in lycra.

No car chases.

They use their wiles, and their wits, and their smarts.

It was so much fun writing that.

Having that kind of tension in the stories.

>> And that insight.

Would you do it again?

>> They've asked us to do it again.

>> They must want another one.

>> They do.

We were actually talking about it last week.

About whether we will or not.

We're enjoying this now.

It's a lot of work.

That came out of the pandemic.

We were able to do it in the pandemic.

We'd Facetime at 7 PM, when both of us were in bed.

(laughs) I was in flannel, she was in something nicer.

So we'd be with our laptops, tossing around ideas and talking about pages, and whatnot.

It's much more difficult to do it now, because we're both incredibly busy.

We want to.

I know we both want to.

We're just trying to find a time to do it, where it will be fun, rather than just a chore.

We didn't have to do this.

We did it because we thought it would be fun.

>> Now you've got a TV series again.

You tried it once, and weren't happy.

Again with 'Prime' and with Alfred Molina and a great production company.

The quote you used, which I found really interesting was Jean le Carré talking about his novels, being turned into a mini-series.

He said it's like watching oxen being turned into bouillon... which is, yuck!

Not a happy experience; you lose control.

>> You lose absolute control.

You see your creations that you care about, being diminished and diminished, and diminished.

What I finally came to was boullion has and what they have.

They've captured the essence; it might not be the same shape, may not be exactly the same structure, but it has the essence.

I came to a peace about that and I like what they've done - not all of it, some of it is disappointing...

But Alfred Molina!

Honestly, he is superb!

After watching all 8 episodes and I watched it like this... >> Valerie: (laughs) >> I kept saying, 'don't eff it up, please dear God'.

I wrote to him to thank him and to say...

I didn't think he knew.

Turns out he did know that Gamache is based on my husband.

I didn't talk about what had happened to Michael.

Michael's favourite phrase was "surprised by joy".

And when I got to the end of the eighth episode, I was surprised by joy .

Thank you for doing this for me, and for Michael.

>> Are there still boook ideas?

18, 19, 20, 21?

>> (laughs) Yes, I know.

You know what -- >> You read and observe and you take notes?

And you?

-- >> I came out of 20 years at the CBC.

Don't we have an endless supply of murderous thoughts after?

(laughs) After that, I do.

Yeah, they talk about writing being so isolating, and it is.

You spend 8 months of the year all alone writing, essentially alone.

At the same time, I've never been so aware of the world around me.

When I'm writing, I need that input, need turns of phrases, the sense of smell, the feel of the air.

>> Valerie: The third!

>> Poetry.

That's right.

All of those things.

The conversation with friends.

All that sensory input.

No, this couldn't have happened without being aware of the world around me.

Also being aware of my interior world.

That's where being a grateful alcoholic comes in.

I'm aware of my flaws, of the terrible things I've done, the terrible things I've fought; the forgiveness that people have shown me, that therefor I need to forgive others.

How awful that is, how awful it is to lug around resentments.

This book is a lot to do with what happens when you forgive.

The magic of forgiveness.

What happens when you can't?

>> The royalties must be sweet.

(Louise laughs) >> Louise, it's pretty great for you, the money department.

>> I'm not going to lie.

It's well beyond anything I ever... ...you know, I live in a little village in Quebec.

I'm so grateful to have no money worries.

Quite a lot of my income now goes to dementia support.

We're helping to build a wing on the local library, that will be named after Michael.

>> I love that you say, like, no one saw this coming.

It's a great story: your mother, your teachers... >> Oh my god!

My mother!

It's not a coincidence frankly, Valerie, that I started writing after my mother passed away, I was afraid of not getting her approval, not doing it well enough.

Once she passed away, I felt freer to take those risks.

>> What does being Canadian mean to you?

>> Everyday, I am so proud.

I am proud...

I am relieved , probably more than proud to be a Canadian.

What a great country, isn't it?

It has everything.

It has democracy, it has freedom of speech, it has gun control.

We have a social safety net, at times of course it's frayed.

No place is perfect, we have a lot to learn and make up for.

We look at what's happening with the indigenous population, how it's shameful, the things we should of known, probably did know, and chose not to act on.

But we are now.

These books are love letters.

No part of me - when they suggested nobody would read a crime novel set in Canada thought 'I am going to set it in Vermont'.

'Oh, you don't want it in Canada?'

Well, screw you, it's going to be set in Canada.

Whomever wants to read it is welcome to read it or not.

As it turns out, people are fascinated, people love to read about Canada.

I'm so grateful about that.

The publishers, clearly... - not my publishers right now- underestimate the readers; readers are curious.

You can't be a reader and not be curious.

There's whole literary tourism idea that I can read about Iceland or Nigeria and get a sense what it's actually like without traveling there.

>> Your readers are sort of fanatics.

>> People are now coming to Quebec, looking for Three Pines.

They write, "Where's Three Pines?"

Reasonable question.

It's inspired by where I live.

the eastern townships, it is.

It does not actually exist in a physical sense.

What I write, I tell them is, Three Pines is a state of mind.

I live in Three Pines when I choose to be kind.

How did kindness become a pejorative?

How does being nice become an insult?

We live in Three Pines.

When we see the flaws, when we choose to see the good things, say something , be supportive.

I don't always live in Three Pines.

The nice thing is wherever I am, I can be in Three Pines.

>> Well, bless you.

Louise Penny.

>> Thank you Valerie.

I've loved this.

>> And we'll be back next week with an episode of Canada Files.

♪